With the Internet’s reach, it makes sense that entrepreneurs take to social media as an avenue for building their brand and growing their business. Then it’s just a matter of finding the right formula and medium to reach your target market and build a following. That was exactly what Fractional CMO & Marketing Strategist and the host of CMO Stories, Joeri Billast, found. Join in as he shares the challenges of creating content for a podcast with an international reach. Plus, Joeri provides valuable insights on how you can leverage that reach and use podcasting as a powerful medium in accelerating your business to the next level.
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Reaching Your Target Market: Podcasting As A Powerful Medium To Accelerate Your Business With Joeri Billast Of CMO Stories
I have the host of CMO Stories, Joeri Billast. I am so excited that we got to have such a wonderful international interview for a change. Joeri is from Belgium. We had such fun talking about my trip to Belgium that I took at one point. I enjoyed meeting many new people, and Joeri is one of them. We had fun. I was already on his show and he has now come on ours. It’s been so much fun to talk to people like Joeri, and learn why they start their show, what they’re doing, and how they feel about it. There’s a lot of European excitement going on here. He’s finding great success in a show that I can’t wait to share with you.
I want to tell you a little bit more about him. He is a Fractional CMO and Social Media Strategist for tech scale-ups and solopreneurs. He’s the author of The 5k Challenge for Solopreneurs. He sold seven-figure businesses in business analytics in 2013. He has quite the experience. You also want to check out and see what he’s doing on social media and other places. Remember, he is a Fractional Chief Marketing Officer, so he’s got some things going on with how he does things. Check out his website. Check out his show. Check out his social channels. Let’s hear straight from Belgium, Joeri Billast.
It’s nice to flip the mic on you. I love that we’re getting to do this in reverse.
Tracy, hello again.
I like the focus of CMO Stories. I like that it’s so focused on that level of the audience and that level of guest as well. What made you decide to focus your show there?
In everything that you are doing, if you have a business or you do marketing, you want to have your audience in mind first. For me, I was looking at who are my audiences? Who is resonating with me? Who gives me the feedback that I’m inspiring those people? I have two audiences. One audience is the solopreneurs, which I’ve written my book for. For the second audience, I realized I don’t have something for tech scale-up. Also marketers are resonating with those people.
I came up with this idea when I was at Web Summit a few years ago. I had the opportunity to book the podcast. I said, “Let’s do this because there are not many people that can book it.” I booked it without having a title for my podcast and without having a guest with it. I was like, “Let’s think about the title.” I’ve made a blog and came up with CMO Stories. I was like, “That feels good. That is it.” I asked people and CMOs at that moment when it started, and it felt good from the first episode.
You knew you hit on it.In life, we get busy and don’t do what we set out to do because there is no trigger. Click To Tweet
It was also the fact that when I ask people to come on the show, they said yes directly. When a lot of people said yes, I was not expecting that.
That’s a good lesson that when you get your title right, it means that it is attractive to the guests. Especially with a new show, you don’t have traction yet, so they don’t know how good your show is. If they want to be associated with that name, that makes it easier to get started.
In the beginning, when I was looking narrower, I will invite CMOs and marketing directors on my podcast. I only contacted those people. I said, “It’s for you.” Then I had 7 or 8 people that said yes and said they were open to podcasting.
What made you think podcasting was going to be a good thing?
I already heard about this. I am in Belgium. I see trends happening in the US and everywhere. I always saw people were doing podcasting, but it was not really a thing yet. I was looking, “Where should I go? What business should I do that I’m not yet doing?” I was thinking, “First, I need to finish my book.” Then I was like, “What do I need to do? YouTube or podcasting?” I was like, “Let’s do YouTube.” I felt that I needed to give podcasting a shot. I was like, “I need to give it a try.”
Sometimes in life, you get busy and you don’t do it because there is no trigger, but suddenly, there was a trigger on the Web Summit. I said, “Let’s go for it.” I’m going to say that podcasting is a thing that I made progress in at light speed compared to the other things that I’ve started. It’s flowing for me. It feels that the energy is right.
That’s good. I’m glad you said that. The underestimated value of a podcast that people don’t realize is how much acceleration can happen when you hit that balance between the right listeners, the right guests, and what you’re doing in your business. If you get that right, that accelerates things in terms of your overall marketing.
Also, something I will say is that because of the podcast, I get people on my show. I get to talk to people that otherwise, I would never have talked to. It shortens the path to reach someone. If I ask people, “Do you want to come on my podcast? Can I invite you to the podcast?” They’re like, “What is this about?” They like it. It’s not like he’s going to sell me something. It’s a whole different feeling or energy.
What’s the biggest challenge for you with the podcast? What was challenging in setting it up, and what’s still challenging for you?
When I was starting, I was like, “I need to be consistent. I need to release one podcast every week on Wednesday.” In the beginning, I was like, “I need guests, but where will they come from?” At a certain moment, I realized I don’t have a podcast episode yet for next Wednesday. I made solo podcasts. Sometimes, I have so much time that I took some time to make it through my iPhone. For instance, I talk about my book or talk about a conference I was at and the lessons throughout. That was the challenge at that moment.
When I was continuing, I was seeing, “How can I grow my podcast?” It wasn’t a second thought. I see that by being consistent, by having people that come on your podcast and sharing the podcast, it’s growing. The next step would be that the podcast at the moment is only on the audio apps, but later on, it will also be on YouTube. Everything comes together because I like to be on camera, so there’s YouTube.
The next step, and I know that’s also what your business is about, is about monetizing the podcast. I spent time in it, and somewhere, I want to get results out of that. At this moment, it’s mostly networking, being in touch with you, and being in contact. Also, I feel that I’m building my authority outside of Belgium, and that works. Now, people reach out to me to be on my podcast because they listened to other episodes. What I was also struggling with in the beginning was English is not my native language. It’s Dutch. My second language is French. I was thinking, “Should I be doing this? Is it good enough?” People from the US and the UK were saying, “It’s good. I like it.”Through podcasts, you can build authority and relationships with people. Click To Tweet
It is good. You should be proud of it. I’m going to inject my Binge Factor here because this is the perfect timing for it. One of the things that I am fascinated about CMO Stories and about the way that you approach it is that it has an international flair. You’re using it to your advantage. From a guesting perspective, I want to be associated with your show because it’s going to put me in this international community that I don’t normally get to. It’s extremely attractive for people in any country to want to be associated with that global community. You’ve created that ability to do that.
The other side of it is that from a listener’s perspective, I’m getting a broader view of the world, which I need to run my business. I need to understand how marketing is happening around the world, and who’s doing successful things in other places because we get isolated in what we do. You’ve given us a broader perspective for both the guests to get that as well as the listener. That’s an amazing feat in one show.
Thank you. That’s also the feeling that I have. I use the fact that I’m in Europe. I have these different languages, I can connect with people around in other countries. I use it to my benefit. I also like to get to know people from around the world. I also tell that to people from everywhere. Sometimes, I struggle with the time zones.
It is a struggle to deal with. We’re like, “When am I going to record it? It’s your evening, it’s my morning.” That is a struggle, but when you make it work, what you’re creating is an amazing collection of people that are sharing their stories, tasks, ideas, and concepts of things that I can apply that I may not hear anywhere else. It’s why I’m going to choose your show over another show. That’s where that Binge Factor comes in. You should be very proud of what you built and keep that going. That’s the beautiful part of what is making your show binge-worthy.
Because you said that, I realize I should emphasize more that it is with people from around the world. You hear different stories.
I get this question all the time from people who want to break into the US market or want to do something in the US market. They’ll ask us, “What do you think about marketing in this way?” Asking those questions, deep diving into them, and keeping that unique for you could also be a great social media attractor. It’s showing that that international flair is going to continue through the show. It’s going to make them want to click through and then subscribe. Use that more to your advantage. You’ve got that, so do it. You’re in a unique place to do it that nobody else can. I don’t have a network in Belgium. I wish I did.
That’s a good feeling to have. With this podcast, I’m experiencing things that I have not even thought were possible. I’ve got two people that wanted to pay to be on the podcast and not be in the waiting line. I said, “Is it possible that this is happening?”
It is happening to you. Let’s talk about those three things. You were talking about how you were able to get a bunch of guests in the beginning. You had that situation where they were all there and you could ask them, and they showed up. That was easy. You then were struggling a little bit with the calendaring and trying to get the time zones right. Are you being more selective about the guests? Do you have a guest vetting process? What is your viewpoint on that guest attractor and that guest vetting process?
To be honest, at first when this started to go well, many people wanted to go on the podcast. I did a selection. It’s not only CMOs, but it’s broader. It’s not my goal to have every agency coming on my podcast to sell their services. I didn’t want that. I want people with a story and with something that people can learn about. It happened like that. I came back from a holiday and I had my calendar open, and people could book into the podcast. I got on this website, PodMatch.
That’s where we met.
I can send a few messages to people like, “If you would like, you can come on the podcast.” When I came back, in one day, four people had booked one time slot after the other in my calendar.
You need a more restrictive calendar so you can space yourself out better.You would think that guests will have the same thing to say, but it's always a different angle or a different story, and you always learn something from them. Click To Tweet
I was thinking, “If people come from the US, they will book my evening.” I thought it will only be 1 slot or 2 slots, but also someone booked from Gibraltar.
You didn’t think about it being all over the world. I love it.
What I said was, “I need to be more careful.” On this waiting list, I have lots of episodes. I recorded an episode. It will be at the end of September or beginning of October 2022 already that I’m with my new guest.
That’s a challenge in and of itself because if you get too far ahead, then they lose the excitement of being on your show in the promotion process. You do have to balance that.
I know that. That’s where I’m at the moment. I said, “It’s good that people want to be on my podcast. Will it continue, or is it just a phase for one or another reason that they find my podcast?” I wanted to give myself some break time. If those podcasts are filled in, I can do some more too because that’s also important. You’re right, that’s something I’m struggling with. I’m thinking, “Should I change the frequency at a certain moment? I need to keep repetitive frequency. Should I do guests that stay at bonus episodes?” That’s the question mark for me.
Those are good problems to have. I love that. Listener growth is the biggest thing that everybody is looking for. How are you going out there and making sure you’re publicizing your show and trying to get more listeners for your show? How do you go about doing that?
In the beginning, I was a bit careful. It’s the Impostor syndrome. I was not sure about the quality of my show. I was sharing it with people, and then I got really nice feedback at the beginning from the guests themselves. They said, “We like it.” I’m using social media for my business and my clients, so I’m putting it out there on every social media channel. I make snippets and clips of videos that I put out there. I’m also mentioning it on my mailing list. I must also admit that I can be even more consistent with it if I want to grow more like I’m consistent with the podcast recordings. I am trying to find the best way to get my show notes in time, and to get my reels and snippets in time, and to get everything in a structure. That’s what I’m working on at the moment.
We understand that challenge for everyone. It’s so great though that you at least have that consistency of your show down because that’s the hardest thing. If I can’t get my clients to record, I can’t make them do it. I can produce everything else for them on the backend, but if I can’t make them record, it’s not going to happen. The fact that you’re doing that is way ahead of everybody else and is going to continue to compound with listeners for you. I recommend that. That’s so good that you’re concentrating on trying to make the social media or the production side consistent. That’s going to reward you with listeners in the end.
When I started the podcast, I didn’t know that in the beginning, you need to build your podcast audience. I already had an audience on social media, so I can say to people, “It will be shared on social media. You will get visibility in that way.” That also helped.
That’s an Impostor syndrome lesson to everyone out there. Listen to Joeri. From what he has said, he wasn’t sharing his own show, but his guests were more than willing to. That should say something strong about you. Take a cue from your guests. If they’re willing to share it, you should be sharing it. You are not an impostor. I love that.
Let’s talk about monetization. You were mentioning you’ve gotten some offers to cut the line and have some guests in with earlier episodes so that it fits their publicity timing. It is great that you can make a little money there and help offset some of your costs. It’s not going to make your business, but where are you seeing the biggest return on investment for the time spent podcasting? Are you seeing it with your book sales? Are you seeing it with business opportunities coming your way, like speaking events? Where are you seeing the return?
I’ve seen that I’m reaching a more international audience that I didn’t reach before. I see that because when I post my podcast on other socials, I get new followers. I get different contacts. I get more calls because people want to talk with me. That’s one thing. Another thing is that I’m using a book for that also. I have some affiliates or collaborations with businesses that I can also use for my podcast. I haven’t done it yet, but that’s something that I am thinking of using.You need to make a choice and then be persistent. Click To Tweet
The fact that you build your authority by doing those podcasts, you can talk to those people, and you can build relationships with people that you won’t expect perhaps at first, and that also opens doors. That’s what I’m seeing at the moment. Also, being on those podcasts and listening is also something that I got as feedback from my guests. They say I’m really listening to them. I also learn stuff that I directly can put into practice that is also beneficial for my business.
Being a Fractional CMO, that’s the role that you predominantly play, although you do help solopreneurs startups. That’s why the fractionalness is important because they’re not ready for a full-time CMO yet. Do you find that there’s a big difference in the things that you would do for a corporation versus the things that you would do for solopreneurs and startups? Is there a big difference in the approaches to marketing?
I would say that the people I’m talking to on my podcast and the feedback that I get are more specialized in a certain area. For instance, they’re in storytelling in Google or in some other domain. They are excelling there, but not everywhere. Whereas a solopreneur is someone that does everything in his business.
That’s so interesting. What I’m getting from what you said there is that the people you’re interviewing have more specialties. Corporations have the ability to hire a bunch of different specialists and bring them together to accomplish their marketing. Those of us with small companies are looking at it from a generalist perspective. We need someone who’s good at everything.
They want to learn also to do it. Either they want someone to coach them and help them, or they want to follow the training with me, or they would like someone to tell them how to do it so they can try to do it themselves. For instance, how to run a promotion on LinkedIn or on Facebook, how to make a new set, and what they should do to get found on Google. Those are more of the basic steps. Those solopreneurs want to know how it works. To be honest, often they say, “We don’t have the time. We want you to help us.”
When we first started our podcasting business, that was the thing. People would say, “What are you doing that is so successful with podcasting? Can you teach me how to do it?” I’d go, “Here’s what I’m doing.” I’d list off all these things and they go, “Can I just give you my credit card? Can you do it for me? That’s way too much to learn. I don’t want to do that.” That’s the way marketing feels now. There are too many moving parts and too many strategies, philosophies, and tactics that go along with it.
I already had 2 or 3 guests on my show that talked about Google, but every time, the story is different. You think it’s the same thing that they tell you, but it’s always from a different angle or a different story. You always learn something for them.
It could be their experience with how Google promoted their business or didn’t.
Sometimes, it also has to do with the place where I live in. I’m in Europe. In the US, the GDPR or Privacy Law is not such a problem. It’s different here than it is in the US. The way that you use mailings or the way that people use, for instance, Amazon, to find something is different in Belgium or in the UK or in Portugal. It’s different everywhere. That’s why it is so exciting to learn this.
We were talking about those differences. We met because of the GDPR. Those rules have affected how we download Kindle books here. We used to be able to go into the Kindle app, which makes sense if I’ve downloaded the Kindle app, it’s in my username. If I’m a subscriber and I have an account, I have a Kindle, but I can’t buy a book through the Kindle app anymore because of the new rules about it. At the end of the day, this is the frustrating part for a user. It’s all about greed for Google and Apple. That’s what it is, and it’s frustrating.
One of my last podcast guest gave me a code to download his book on Amazon, but it’s a code for the US. In Belgium, I cannot use it.
That’s going to be the eye-opening thing as you continue to do your show. You’re exposing these differences internationally between our countries and the way things work. We could learn something different about where we might be in two years, what we should do about it, and where those problems are. We could solve them ahead of time if we’re paying attention. That’s yet another reason to listen to your show.Talk to people and get feedback on things that you can improve on or on things that you are doing really good at so you can continue them. Click To Tweet
Let’s talk about your book because I want to talk about that. It’s called The 5k Challenge for Solopreneurs. At first when I saw it, I was like, “Solopreneur? 5k?” It seems small to me, but I was thinking about it, and it’s the right metric for moving past that first stage. $5,000 is the right amount for that. If it’s long-term, you’re not going to build a sustainable business off of that, but if you don’t get past that, you can’t scale to that next level.
Most of the positive feedback I always get is outside of Belgium. When it’s in Belgium, my own country and the place where I live, I’m never the hero. They look at my book and say, “I don’t believe that. How can you make $5,000 on social media in 21 days?” For some people, they’re like, “That’s a small amount.”
Here in the US, we’re inundated with courses and programs that say, “You’ll make $1 million in a million-dollar launch.” They’re not believable either. That’s why I think realistically, that $5,000 is a good number. That’s going to give you something that you could then turn into sustainable growth. In the next month, you can do $10,000. I think that’s possible.
It depends also on your business and what kind of product or service you’re selling. I did it when COVID hit. When I lost lots of my clients, I started doing stuff that worked at that moment. I then got a lot of new clients. I was already writing the book. It made me think of how I can share this information and the things that I learned in my book because it’s helpful for people. How did I do that in the beginning? It was a book about Facebook marketing. It was in Dutch. It wasn’t in English. I was struggling to make progress, and then my coach said, “It’s almost Black Friday. Why don’t you make it a challenge?” She challenged me on how to make 10K. I said, “How to make 5K sounds more logical. It sounds good to do it in 21 days without using ads.”
That’s the key. You said without using ads, which is critical. If you had written this in 2021, come 2022, the ads stopped working. We were running ads in 2021 that stopped working altogether in 2022 through nothing different than we were doing. It was all through the algorithms, all through the changes in Facebook, or the changes in all of the different places. It was also in the email. There were changes there too because your follow-up wasn’t coming through. I love that that’s what your challenge is. I think the $5,000 is realistic and doable for people.
They should try. Read the book. What will most people do is they will start executing because it’s a plan. There are guidelines in the book. They will start doing it and they will stop. Most people will quit before they arrive. If they want to start the business or they want to grow their business online, this is critical that they continue doing it.
That’s why a challenge is so good. It’s such a good idea. Your coach was smart there.
I said to people, “Even if you don’t reach 21 days, one day after the other, take some more time. Follow all the steps and do it consistently and then you will get the results.”
This is what I find in marketing. The thing that you mentioned at the very beginning about being consistent in marketing is the key at the end of the day. There’s so much of this, “Just try it,” but when you try something, you’re not giving it enough time or you didn’t give the necessary prep. We plan to launch a course, a book, a program, or whatever that is, and we didn’t do the months of work needed to prep that up ahead of time to make it as successful as possible. That consistency is missing in marketing because there are many of these flashy opportunities.
People get distracted when they see some new things. You have to choose something and go for it. That’s why I didn’t launch my podcast at the time that I was writing my book. I wanted to do one thing first, finish it, and then do the next thing. I’m someone that likes to do different things. You need to make a choice and then be persistent. If I haven’t been consistent, I would have given up the podcast months ago and said, “It doesn’t work for me.” I’m continuing. It was not something that I expected already at this moment. When I was starting it I was like, “I need to do this. It feels like I need to do this. I must not directly expect anything back, but I’ll assure it would come because it felt good.”
What’s some advice that you can give to someone who’s just launching their podcast? From a marketing perspective, what can they do to help get some successful exposure and listens to their show? They want to get listeners right away. What are some successful marketing things they can do there?
First, you need to have a podcast.Have people on your podcast that have a bigger audience. That way, you can get more visibility and reach. Click To Tweet
It needs to be ready to go.
That’s the same thing with the book. Your marketing needs to be ready to go. You need to have at least 5, 6 or 7 episodes that you know that you can launch, and that the train is already going on.
You know what you’re going to be marketing. You need to have a sense of that.
You need to know what you’re going to be marketing. You need to know your audience. You need to think of the people or the audience. Maybe it’s your customers, maybe it’s a new niche of other people that you want to reach and that you feel like you can connect with. Once you get that, you find the title that goes with it and that people can recognize in the podcast.
If you already have a social media channel or social media presence, you need to think, “How can I make sure that when the podcast is released, I have a system in place to show it to other people?” A good thing is to also have a mailing list. If you don’t have it, it is good to build one or to start to do something. Notify people that you have this podcast. Those can be people on your LinkedIn or that has good connections with you.
I shared my podcast, but I was not really telling everyone. Perhaps it depends on how you feel about it. The best thing is to talk to people and get feedback. Feedback is always good. Either you know the things that you can improve, or on the other side, you know the things that are doing good so you can you continue them. What is also good is to talk to others who have a podcast. It can be a coach, but you can also listen to other people. You can also do what I’m doing. I’m being a guest on other people’s podcasts to see how they are doing it and learn from that.
What’s next for you? What’s next for CMO Stories? What are you going to up-level to in 2023?
I already had some interesting people on my podcast like the inventor of Siri. I had Park Howell who has written a bestseller book. I already had Mark Schaefer that showed interest in my book. I had you on my podcast. I like to have people on my podcast that have a bigger audience than I have or a lot of audiences that are also the audience for my podcast. In that way, I can get more visibility and more reach by having people on my podcasts that have more.
It sounds like you’re dialing it in tighter.
That’s something that I will do. In the beginning, I was tight with the CMO, and then it grew bigger. I’m going tighter again. I have the scarcity aspect also of my podcast that if people contact me, even if they want to pay, it should fit with the podcast. I know I have something that people like. I want to keep my audience.
That exclusivity factor is what you’ve got going for you. I love that.
That’s next. I will think of the monetization aspect of it also and how I can improve my podcast on that level and other levels. I will always be open to feedback. Maybe, I can also work together with other shows. I’m thinking about that. When you asked me to be on your podcast, I also had a guest that also asked me to come on his podcast. People are asking me back.
We call it the podcast swap. My listeners are listeners. It’s easier to have another podcaster as a guest. You have more likelihood of getting listeners from me being on your show and from you being on my show. It’s going to happen.
If they resonate with the subject or with what you’re talking about, you can have those followers. It’s the same with social media. You need to go there. If you invite someone that’s not on social media, they will not bring you followers on that social media channel. If you know someone that has a lot of followers, then it will work. It’s the same with podcasting and so on.
One of the things that podcasters always do when they first start their show is start looking at their stats, which I consider vanity metrics. I don’t want them obsessing over them. It’s nice to look at them after a month of shows and see how you’re doing. They’re always astounded by the number of countries they’re in and the different people who are listening. I see it from this fact that still, the big chunk for US podcasters is the US, and then there are lots of other countries that fall around that. Do you find that you’re having a bigger listening base within your country or is it broader?
It’s international. I’m a bit everywhere. I don’t think that I’m on the top charts, but I’m spread around the world. The reason that I have people from everywhere is that I share it with their listeners. I’ve seen the stats. When I look at the map, it’s nice to have these colors everywhere in the world.
We’ll put you in Podetize and you have to check out. We have the stat where we look at similar shows. It shows you who you’re compared against. We have the ability to give you that view on our stat side. It fascinated me with some of the shows that I was compared against because I was like, “I’ve never heard of that. It’s an Australian show.”
I was surprised at the internationalness of what it pulled up in my niche that I had not realized because when I pull it up in the search engine on my end if I’m looking for it, it pulls up my country first. I don’t think anyone realizes that our listening apps treat us like the listener we are. They assume locality for you, which isn’t necessarily the right thing. The statistics show something completely different on the other side. I thought that was interesting.
That’s good for you that you’re all over the world. You’ve got this international flavor to your show, CMO Stories. I predict good things for you, your business, and the show itself. Thank you so much for coming to the show. I’m so glad we met on PodMatch. I’m glad we’ve done this wonderful show exchange.
It was a pleasure. I’m also looking at your offering. Indeed, it has lots of good stuff with it. There are these analytics, and also the fact that you have coaching. That’s also important for people to be consistent, not only because they have guests. If you have a following or you have someone that you can discuss with, chances are you have to stay consistent.
I told you that was going to be interesting and you would get that international flare. I got to ask the question that I’ve always wanted to know. We’re all fascinated here with our international statistics, and he seems to be as fascinated with his US statistics. I love that. That’s great. It is so impressive to me when someone can start a show and they’re in the marketing world.
It seems to me that they’re like, “This is another tactic. This is some other thing I could start.” They could choose anything to do and they decide to start a podcast. They start to find traction and success, and then they start to think of new ways. They’re like, “How am I going to market my show? How am I going to use it? How am I going to drive leads from this?” They start to get into that. That’s what I find fascinating about this interview with Joeri.
What I find fascinating about his show is the kind of questions that he’s asking. I can hear him asking the CMOs on his show about things that he’s thinking about, like marketing his podcast and marketing for his clients. I can hear that in the way that he is asking questions. That’s why CMO Stories is a show that you’re not going to want to miss. You’re going to want to check out what Joeri Billast has to say, and enjoy the exposure to all these different podcasters and the way that they are marketing their show, growing their show, and finding success. That’s why we’re here. I hope you’ll join me next time. Don’t forget, you can apply if you’ve got a show at TheBingeFactor.com. You can also check Joeri’s show, CMO Stories, and find out everything about how to link to him, and how to find his social channels. Thanks, everyone. I’ll see you next time.
- Joeri Billast
- The 5k Challenge for Solopreneurs
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