Starting a podcast with your best friends sounds just as fun as it does. Because friendships and relationships are things that everyone can relate to. This is exactly what Leisa Reid & Tamara Kindred thought of when they started their own podcast, “How I Met My BFF.” Join Tracy Hazzard as she talks to Leisa and Tamara about what gave them the idea to start a podcast. Discover how their podcast is structured and how it leverages their own businesses. Find out how they find guests, who are other BFFs, who want to be on the show. Understand why friendship is important and why it’s never too late to find your own BFF.
Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
How Best Friend Relationship Podcast Model Hooks Listeners And Translates Into Future Opportunities With Leisa Reid And Tamara Kindred Of How I Met My BFF
I have two co-hosts. They are BFFs. They’re best friends. That’s their show. It’s How I Met My BFF. It’s fascinating what they have decided to do with this show, what they have done with it, and how they’re taking it. It’s a fascinating story. I’ve got Leisa Reid and Tamara Kindred. It is so much fun. It all started in Fairbanks, Alaska with two soul sisters destined to meet and become lifelong friends.
Leisa Reid and Tamara Kindred co-host their podcast, How I Met My BFF. Their podcast is in celebration of the best friend relationship, a relationship so important yet not always recognized for its massive significance. Leisa and Tamara interviewed other best friends to learn how they met and hear their perspectives on friendship. It’s an interesting model.
Leisa Reid and I met because she’s a speaker coach. Get Speaking Gigs Now is her business. We met because of that. The fact that she has this podcast and it’s not directly related to that business is an interesting model. We’re going to talk a little bit about both of those things, how they got started, how they co-host together, how they stayed BFFs, and how it does translate into future growth and future business opportunities for them both.
Leisa and Tamara, I’m so glad to have you. I’m excited to talk about How I Met My BFF. The funny story is Leisa was coming to meet me. We were having a Zoom meeting. We got connected. The night before, I had this weird conversation with my youngest daughter where she said, “Who’s your best friend?” I said, “My best friend is your dad.” She goes, “That’s not allowed. It has to be a girl.” That was when your podcast name caught my eye. We had to have a conversation.
You got BFF shamed.
I was like, “I’m not allowed to have your dad?” It’s so funny. I love the story and the premise of the show, but here’s what I didn’t hear anywhere. Maybe I missed the episode on this because I skim it. What made you decide to start a podcast together?
I will share the story. I own my business. It’s pretty much me. I have a team that helps me, but I’m pretty much the chief bottle washer. I had this inkling pull, “Maybe I should get a partner.” I had this desire to do something with someone, not just by myself. As I thought about it, I thought, “I have everything dialed in. Why would I invite someone to give half my business away?” It wasn’t flowing. I started to look deeper into that feeling. I thought, “What is it that I’m missing? What am I attracted to?”
I noticed that there were a couple of moments where I felt a little jealous of something, and not jealous like, “I wish that person ill will,” but, “I want that.” It was this little whiny adolescent feeling. It was when two best friends were doing a project together. My thought at the time was, “That would be so fun to have a best friend to do a project with,” but it didn’t connect with my business. Once I let that go, I thought, “It doesn’t have to connect to my business. What could Tamara and I do together that would be super fun?” This is all happening in the background in my mind.
I’ve talked with a couple of people about the feeling that I’m having. She and I had our 30th-year high school reunion in 2021. We go up to Fairbanks, Alaska where we’re from. We hang out with our other best friend, Vicky. We have the best time. It’s fun. I thought, “I want this more.” I thought about it. Tamara was out of the country at the time that I came up with the idea. She’s in Italy. Everyone kept asking us at the reunion and saying, “You are so lucky. You’ve been best friends for so long. How do you do it? You don’t even live in the same state.”
They were complimentary of our relationship. I’m like, “I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t have this relationship. It’s so important to me.” This is all happening. It hits me one day. I go, “We can have a podcast. We can talk about our best friendships. We can interview other best friends. That would be so fun.” I named the podcast, decided what it was going to be about and all the things, and had it all dialed in. I needed Tamara to agree to my crazy and wild idea.
You’ve known her long enough to be able to figure out exactly how to get her to do that.
I thought she would probably say yes. I want to give the space for her to say no but then she said yes.
I love it. Was either of you podcast listeners?
Yeah, but we looked into different podcasts.
I thought it was an amazing idea. I would love to do something like that with my best friend. Leisa has spoken. She’s a speaker. She teaches people how to speak. I am the furthest I believe from that, especially with talking on a podcast, let alone interviewing people. That has been my largest learning curve, but I’m working on it. We have been doing it now for over a year. I’m still not perfect, but I’ve learned a lot. I was in Rome. I remember exactly where I was when I spoke with her over the phone and she tells me this. I was like, “That would be a fun thing to do.”
You had ideas of doing a podcast before, but we had never talked about that. I didn’t know that you had thought about it before.
It’s more on the production side or the idea side, not the actual interviewing a person and speaking side.
You were like, “This sounds fun but there’s a lot to do there.” What was the most daunting to-do thing for you, Tamara?
Leisa is very organized, which is great. I’m organized as well, but I’m busy, as we all are. She’s great at being able to keep everything in order for this because this is our side. We do this for fun. For me, it’s hard sometimes to be as organized as Leisa. I didn’t want to make her do all of the work. It was more pressure on myself to try to be as present as I can be. Sometimes I am not the greatest, but I work on it. That was probably the hardest part for me.
Promoting this has been hard because a lot of people are like, “Why would I want to listen to you interview best friends?” That has been surprising, but we have learned ways to work around that. If you don’t want to listen, that’s fine. When we do our interviews, mostly the thing that I love about it is that regardless if you get a million listeners or one listener, it’s a love letter between two best friends. They have that forever.
That’s what would be the fun part. It’s reairing it from the guest side and going, “This is my best buddy.” I love that idea. That’s something I don’t always do on the show. It’s not my role here to mentor you live on the show, but I’m wondering if maybe we should talk about that a little bit because that’s the challenge of some of the shows. I get this a lot from people who have addiction podcasts, self-help podcasts, and in this case, a slightly entertainment-style but still with that angle of being, “How do I improve my friendship?” That’s why you might listen to the show. It’s ideas for improving that or vicariously living through that.
Going back to our reunion, there are people who are like, “I don’t have a friendship like that.” We believe that it’s never too late to meet your next BFF. You don’t have to have just one.It's never too late to meet your own BFF. You don't have to have just one. Click To Tweet
They can be your husband, your spouse, your partner, a boy, or a girl.
That’s allowed. I’m telling my daughter that. I’m clipping that you said that, so it’s valid.
That’s the expert testimony right here.
That’s the model that I recommend most to them. In your case, your guests are more likely to share this with their friends. It’s like, “We did this cool and fun thing together. We went out to dinner together. We went to the spa together.” You’re sharing something fun you did together. That’s more likely to happen. On a self-help show, they don’t do that. You don’t always want to admit that you needed help or that you heard this podcast. Getting people to share it on that side is hard, but your guests do want to share it. It’s fun. That’s probably the promotion angle that needs to be exploited more.
Here in our organization, we call that Ego Bait™. How can we give them something that makes them feel good about their friendship, strokes their ego of whatever that is, and gets them to share it? Even if they’re not great on social media, you are doing something that highlights them in a way that they’re willing to share their experience doing it. That’s maybe the key to getting that promotion angle up because it is a challenge with a show that doesn’t have something like a lesson learned, checkbox, or tip Instagram that I’m sharing out. It’s different on a show like yours.
Here’s the surprising thing about having a podcast. I’ve done a YouTube show. I did 70 episodes on my YouTube channel and different things. I’m a guest on lots of podcasts. I have my social media presence and team that’s regularly going. I was surprised at how organized I feel like we are in giving them all the links and saying, “Here’s a way that you can share it. We ask that you do X, Y, and Z.” With Tamara and I being so busy, it’s like, “How do you keep your eye on all those balls?” I don’t follow up and see if they did share or, “How do we make sure we’re connected?” It’s this minutia of detail. I’m not great at tracking those pieces.
This is the thing. In our company, we do automation for those things because it is almost impossible for you to check. I used to write articles for Inc. Magazine. I would share the articles with PR firms. I couldn’t even be sure they were resharing and doing what they were supposed to do. There was no way for me to figure that out. It got to be a problem. The only thing we found that does up the ante is you share it when the episode goes live.
You do all of your social promotions for a week or whatever you’re going to do. You might have 2 or 3 posts that you make over a course of a week. You make sure that you tag because if you don’t tag, it’s not going anywhere. They will never see it. If you can’t tag in the post itself because you’re doing Buffer, MeetEdgar, or Hootsuite, and they don’t let you tag, put them in the comment. Every day I go on and add to the comment or something like that. It’s super simple tagging.
One week later, it’s a repeat email that says, “In case you missed it and didn’t share it the first time, here it is again.” In that reminder, I get a lot of people who said, “I was away when you sent the first one. I’m sorry. I’m on it now.” I get a lot of responses like that to that seven-day follow-up. When we calculated it, we tripled the number of shares by doing that, but it’s not a lot of effort because it’s the same email you sent before with a new headline that says, “Reminder, in case you forgot.”
That’s a good tip.
It is automation, so it’s not all that hard. You schedule a reply. Immediately, you write a reply that says, “In case you forgot,” and schedule out one week in your email. That’s one of the ways we found the best to be able to do it. You have to use your guests. You’ve got some great and fun guests. Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about our three things. How are you finding these best friends?
Being an entrepreneur, I am networking out a lot, whether it’s virtual, in person, or I’m out speaking. I meet fascinating people like you, Tracy, on a regular basis. I use my intuition, “This person might seem like a good guest.” I’ll say, “I have a show. I co-host with one of my BFFs. We interview other BFFs.” I can tell right away. Usually, that’s when we start talking about them being on the show. If they’re like, “That’s nice,” I know we’re probably not, which is fine. It’s no skin off our backs.
It would be a good icebreaker though. I could see that as a great networking event. It’s like, “Who’s your best friend? Where did you meet? I’m so curious about you.” Normally, we ask about where you’re from. We want to hear about Montana. We were talking about thundersnow and scary places I’ve lived. What are those icebreakers? Asking about people’s BFFs is interesting.
It’s amazing. This is a powerful and strong relationship I’ve had with Tamara since we were twelve. I never thought about it intersecting with my business life. That certainly wasn’t why I stayed friends with her for so long. It’s not the intent, but it is a beautiful conversation starter that’s natural and true. I’m happy to share about it and talk about her and how lucky we are to have each other. I love hearing other people’s stories. They’re like, “The way we met is so crazy. You have to hear it.” I’m like, “We want to have you on the show.” It fills my heart. I like it.
I love that. What about you, Tamara? Do you find people randomly?
One show had guests that I have gone out and reached. In a lovely way with what Leisa does, sometimes we have been too busy. The network and how it has spread has been the most fascinating because we’re now interviewing people that Leisa doesn’t necessarily bring to the show. There are now layers of people, “We were friends of so-and-so that you interviewed back in June.”
People are saying, “You should come on their show.”
They can go and book themselves. We show up and meet these people that neither one of us know.
It’s like a cocktail hour for you too.
I could probably work better at inviting people, but it has all worked out. I have a list of people, but we have been booked. It has worked out well.
That’s so good. We were talking about social media promotion and everything. What’s working for you over there? What do you see as some of the ways that you’re finding that listeners are finding you best?
I’m not a deep analytics person like you are, Tracy. You are in Mensa or something.
I’m not on social media but anywhere else.
It has been because of our guests. I use it to promote my channels for my business. It’s another thing that’s not pushing my business, but it’s a fun project that I can do. It’s also because I work with entrepreneurs who like to speak. They might find that’s a great way to get on a podcast and practice talking, “How do you do it?” I promote through my business channels. If we didn’t have that, I don’t know what else we would have done, to be honest, because we as How I Met My BFF don’t have an email list. That hasn’t been our area of focus. It could be in the future but currently, it’s not.
I was thinking about this. I was checking out your Instagram feed and stuff like that. You do have an Instagram feed for the podcast. It’s brilliant because so much of what we have on social media is so highly constructed. It’s over-branded. You’ve got these fun shots of the best friends. They have sent you their social media post where they were at a party together. They all look like they’re having amazing fun and that they love each other. That’s so great to see in someone’s feed. It’s refreshingly fun.
I listened to your show to check it out right before. It’s part of my research process. I heard a little bit of it, but I refreshed myself again. I heard a little bit of it when I first met Leisa but wanted to check it out again. As I did, I got this episode about you two going to Italy, which I’m going to talk about because I want to hear all about that. You mentioned my show there. You had been checking out my show. Part of the process was having these photos that I asked for because we put them in the article. It’s part of our form that we built into our process of bringing guests on because most of our guests are promoting their businesses. It’s not as much promoting their friendship, but you don’t need formal shots.
You probably have these amazingly beautiful shots of the two of you having fun somewhere. It would be refreshing to see that even if we don’t get you podcasting together. The reason I suggest podcasting and speaking shots is that’s the thing that we’re promoting. Having those wonderful shots of the two of you together out there being authentically you and being friends is amazing. How often do we get good candid shots that are a part of our promotion in any way? You have the opportunity for that.
I don’t even know if I told you this, Tamara. Surprise. The one that we sent you is from when we went to Hawaii together for the very first time. We were eighteen. It happened to be a total eclipse. They handed out these little 3D cardboard glasses. There’s a picture of us in Hawaii with our little 3D glasses.
Sharing is going to naturally grow the show. It’s not a speedy way, but naturally, that’s going to get you listeners because someone is going to say, “That photo looks so fun. I want to hear the story behind that.”
We will have to tell that story in another show. It’s the total eclipse story.
Tell it. We would love to hear it. You were eighteen in Hawaii. It sounds like there’s a pattern here. We will get on the trip. You went to Italy, but let’s hear this Hawaii story. I want to hear it.
We graduated. Leisa’s dad had moved to The Big Island. Both of us wanted to go there for our last hurrah before we were off to college. I was supposed to go to MSU, and Leisa went to California. We were going to go for two weeks. I’m very into astronomy. There happened to be a total solar eclipse. It was 1991, July 17th. I was like, “I’m going to go to Hawaii. I want to see this.” Being in Alaska, many dreams are to go to Hawaii and hang out with your best friend in the summer before moving on to college. We went for two weeks and stayed with Leisa’s dad. It was my first time.
I had been to Hilo, Waikiki, and Oahu when I was little but not the Kona side. That was my first time on the Kona side.
It was my first time being in Hawaii whatsoever. We had an amazing two weeks. It sidetracked my life because I ended up going back to Alaska, packing up, and moving instead to Montana to go to MSU as I was supposed to do. I moved back to Hawaii.
It inspired you to change the whole course of your life. I love that. Trips are an interesting idea, as you were talking about on the episode that I was listening to of your show about your Italy trip. This is before you went because I haven’t heard one since you came back.
It’s an introduction.
I’m sure it’s coming. I don’t want to miss it. I’m sure it will be out. You can catch that episode. You make trips together. There was a podcaster I had early on in my show here when it was called a different name. It was called the Center of Influence. One of the outcomes of her podcast was the fact that she was running these trips. I was thinking, “The best friend trip sounds so much fun.” That might be your monetization model in the future. You run these trips, “We bring our best friends along.”
We started getting that exact comment throughout episodes of different people who didn’t know each other, “We want to go with you when you go somewhere. We want to go on a best friend retreat, best friend cruise, and best friend wine tasting.” People would say that to us. We’re like, “We could do that.”
“That’s not a bad idea.”
Tamara, you can share how the Italy trip ended up becoming our first BFF retreat. We were having a fun time.
I was with one of my daughter’s best friends. We were having lunch. I’ve been to Italy a number of times and made friends there, so I know the people there. I love going there. We were having lunch. She was like, “I want to go to Italy with you the next time you go.”
That’s all you needed to hear, “I happen to be going tomorrow.”
I was, “Let’s go.” I have a friend in Italy. It was weird timing. At lunch, I received a message from him. I was like, “We have to go.” I started talking about this with my daughter’s best friend, Sophie. I was like, “I want to open this up because I have had the great experience of getting to go to Italy.” I know Rome, the Amalfi Coast, and Tuscany the best. A lot of the people who came were a bunch of my best friends from all different walks of life. I was the hub of it. I was telling people in my life that I would love to show Italy. Before I knew it, there were nine people coming plus me.
“I’m taking you up on that offer.”
Leisa would be like, “Who did you invite this week?” If I had a superpower, I would love all of my people to be together. We could go to all the different places around the world.
Travel companies, listen in here. There’s a sponsorship opportunity.
They should be listening. There are wineries, spas, and hotels.
I belong to this mastermind. They spun off and have a little lady section. We have a Zoom call every couple of weeks. Whenever there’s one of the events, which is quarterly, we usually have breakfast, but we would chat for too long that we would delay the start of the event. They eventually decided this past event to give us dinner so that we could go as long as we wanted, which was smart. One of the people there was so sweet. He sponsored wine for us all. One of the guys there was like, “I want to support all the women in this group.”
One of the people in there is organizing. It’s called Lugos Travel. They do these wonderful events. She’s got a wine-tasting spa event in Northern California. We’re all signing up at the table because it means that we now get to have an event that we don’t have any structure to except, “Go whitewater rafting, get a spa, and taste some wine.” It sounds so much more fun for us to get to hang out that way. I do think you’re onto something.
A lot of times when we do interviews, Leisa and I joke around about it. I am at a winery. I’m like, “We should do a season of Best Friends Go to Wineries.”
Maybe the new idea for you is to pop on a travel mic and open up your iPhone. It doesn’t matter. Pop it on and tell them where you are and what you’re doing as friends together to connect. It doesn’t need to be a long episode in between the other ones. That’s part of the charm of your show. If I could identify any binge factor about it, it’s that we are watching two pretty different people who have managed to stay best friends for most of their lives and who still love to do things together.
There are some vicarious aspirations through that. I want to live in that model of it. At the same time, I’m curious about the other people that you find, “Where am I going to meet my next best friend?” There’s also that, “What’s going to happen next? Where are you going to go next? Who are you going to introduce me to next?” That’s an interesting model. It’s an attractive model that makes me want to listen to all your shows.
It’s so fun to hear. It gives people hope as well because it can be lonely. I had a close friend who confessed why she hadn’t taken me up on being on the show. She said, “I had some guilt.” I don’t know if she felt shame but she felt some feelings that weren’t great about a friendship that she had for a long time. It had ended. She felt sad about that since she was like, “I don’t feel like I want to talk about this.” We have been chatting for about a year. She has since rekindled and healed that relationship, which is why the confession came. I was like, “That’s amazing.” She goes, “We might even use that as something that we talk about on the show.” They’re very transparent with each other. I’m like, “That is incredible.”
That would be beautiful. I talked to my sister. We are so busy. We live ten minutes apart. There’s no excuse, but then we only get together on Thanksgiving. It was ridiculous. I talked to her. I was feeling bad about it. She was like, “Don’t feel bad.” I was saying, “It’s on me. I’m the big sister. I should have been calling you every week and bugging you to get on the phone with me.” She’s like, “It’s me. What I appreciate most about you is that I can pick back up.” I was like, “I don’t need to feel guilty about this. Our relationship is okay as sisters. We’re good.” People want to hear that because we run around with some guilt about our friends or how often we connect with them.
Life changes. Tamara had five kids. I’ve had one. We have both been through a divorce. We have both moved. We have had economic challenges, economic times of greatness, and everything in between. I believe there is a certain amount of effort to have a solid friendship with a person.It takes a certain amount of effort to have a solid friendship with someone. Click To Tweet
That’s what you’re showing on this podcast a lot. It doesn’t happen. It’s work, but it’s fun, good, and worthwhile work to stay connected to someone. Maybe podcasting together is the way to keep that connection happening.
I don’t know, Tamara, how you feel about this. I remember, “This is our first time sharing a Google Doc. That’s different.” Prior to the podcast, we usually would talk on the phone because we’re children of the ’80s. We didn’t FaceTime. We weren’t on Zoom regularly. It has been a different part of our relationship, “Look at this.”
Your relationship has grown from it. I want to end with this. I want to ask both of you. I’m going to start with you, Tamara. What has been the most surprising return on investment for you personally? Has there any been professional good news or things happening because you’re like, “I’m a podcaster,” and people have rewarded you for that?
As far as what has been the most rewarding part, it’s the time that Leisa and I beyond what we already did anyway get to spend together. It is having to use a different part of my brain with Leisa as far as how we are working on Google Docs and setting up Instagram and all that stuff. That part has been great. It made me able to focus on something creative but also learn with my best friend.
She’s very kind to me and I hope I am to her as being patient. That part has been wonderful. I do a whole separate thing. I work with homelessness. This is more of a creative thing for me. I can’t say it changed my work relations, but it is a good opener. I usually don’t have too much of a problem with meeting people and getting to know people, but this has been helpful, as Leisa said before, to be like, “I have a podcast.” It makes a nice neutral territory for discussion.
That’s good because you’re opening a common ground of interest.
When you think of people on the web, we have created an even bigger web that is connected across not just the country but even beyond the country. This has helped me do that. Tamara travels. There’s someone we met through the podcast who lives in a different state. Tamara went to meet that person in person. I haven’t even met her. It is so cool. Amazing and magical things came from that.
It reminds me that it happened in our past life in terms of creating connections like KimBerly Keyton. Here’s a shout-out to the Stardust Motel. She and I became friends many years ago. Tamara came out from my wedding. They became friends and then have since kindled a different relationship than KimBerly. We have a steady reason why that can happen. It’s beautiful. I love it.
How about you professionally? You have Get Speaking Gigs Now. That’s your book. Authority building is probably a significant part of your everyday conversations in business. How has the podcast helped you with that?
Some of our guests have become my clients. That’s never the reason why I invite somebody, but if I can support them, that’s awesome. It’s getting to meet someone, they have a need, and they’re like, “Tell me more about that. I think you can help me,” and we have different conversations. I work intimately with my clients. I love getting to know who they are as a person, and like, “Let me invite you in and see how we can make things better for you.” I love that. It’s unexpected. It’s a different responsibility. I don’t have to teach anything on the podcast. I don’t have to brand anything. I’m not holding all this responsibility as I do when I’m speaking and representing my company. It’s like hosting a party instead of hosting a workshop.
It’s a little bit different and more fun.
It’s a little different energy. It allows people to get to know me a little bit better because I’m pretty open, but I’m also not going to tell people things that aren’t relevant to the situation. I get to talk about whatever is going on.
I love that. Do you have any advice for any best friends out there on how to stay friends for a good long time?
It does take work. I’m not saying it should be hard work, but as with any other relationship, you have to put time, energy, love, communication, and patience into it. It’s like any other relationship. You don’t always take time to tell your best friend, “I appreciate what you mean in my life.” Leisa and I have been good at doing that throughout the years with one another. That has been important.
That’s great. I’ve heard that throughout the conversation here. What you said there applies to being good co-hosts together as well. You’ve appreciated Leisa’s skillsets and the things that she has been teaching on the organizational side. I can hear Leisa’s appreciation for your ability to connect, grow your trip to Italy, and meet somebody new. That’s great that you do appreciate that about each other and say it.
It’s about being intentional on a deeper level. If a person wants more friendships or deeper connections, then what does that intention look like for them? Who are you wanting to attract? What activities do you enjoy doing? I bet if you went and did those activities, you would probably meet a bird of a feather who flocks together with you. It’s a little gutsy as an adult to become friends with someone. You have to say, “I like you. Do you like me? Do you want to play?”
What’s harder as an adult was easier at twelve.
It’s like, “I’ve got Barbies. Do you want to come over and play Barbies?” Now, it’s more like, “Do you want to meet for coffee?” Extending that, seeing if you still connect, and growing that is one step at a time.
Thank you both for coming to the show. I’m so glad we got to talk about How I Met My BFF, meet, and get to know you both better.
Thank you, Tracy.
I love that when I get to interview people, it gets me thinking about things like, “Who’s my BFF? Would anyone want to hear the story?” Honestly, my BFF is my husband and partner. People do want to hear the story. It is an interesting thing that you can explore how somebody is who they are through that relationship and still get out some interesting business relationships going as well because everything revolves around relationships.
We have a relationship. You are my audience, and I’m your curator, bringing you interesting stories and podcasters and trying so hard to make sure that I’m thinking about you all the time. We do have a relationship going on here. That intimacy of the microphone is helping out this show and could be helping you with your exploration of your show and your ideas as well. Check out How I Met My BFF, their business model, their podcast model, the structure, how they do things, and the interesting and fun interviews that are there. Be sure to connect with Leisa and Tamara as well. Come back and see who I’ve curated for you as your next inspiring guest.
- How I Met My BFF
- Get Speaking Gigs Now
- Instagram – How I Met My BFF
- Lugos Travel
- KimBerly Keyton – LinkedIn
- Get Speaking Gigs Now
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